The Lost Art of Mineral Therapy in Practice with Daniel Jones

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The Lost Art of Mineral Therapy in Practice with Daniel Jones

Once upon a time mineral therapy was an intrinsic part of naturopathic practice. In the modern curriculum it's offered primarily as an elective subject and, as a result, many of the practitioners from recent generations lack experience in applying this therapy clinically.
Today we're talking to Dan Jones who has a passion for educating his peers on how mineral therapy is a core element of his practice. With over three decades of clinical experience to draw from, and mentored by some of Australia's most prominent practitioners, Dan shares countless examples of when and how he's applied mineral therapy for optimal patient outcomes.

Covered in this episode

[00:42] Introducing Daniel Jones
[01:29] Defining mineral therapy
[02:21] Dosage and strength differences
[05:31] The synergy between herbs and mineral therapy
[07:18] The legacy of Alf Jacka
[09:51] The least remedies to do the most work
[12:37] Getting started with mineral therapy
[14:40] Learning from Denis Stewart
[16:03] Can mineral therapy overcome poor diet?
[17:04] Is there an issue with lactose within celloids?
[19:33] Mega-dosing vs micro-dosing
[23:55] Discussing Calcium fluoride & Calcium phosphate
[27:20] Discussing Potassium phosphate
[29:32] Discussing Iron phosphate
[31:08] Potassium phosphate and Magnesium phosphate
[32:48] Discussing Sodium phosphate
[33:51] Mineral therapy result expectations?
[35:11] Safety aspects, responsible prescribing & referrals
[38:00] Seminar series with Dan Jones and Denis Stewart

Andrew: This FX Medicine, I'm Andrew Whitfield-Cook. Joining us on the line today is Daniel Jones. Dan is a dynamic and entertaining presenter with over 30 years naturopathic experience who has lectured and supervised clinic hours at a leading naturopathic college.

Dan co-authored the respected textbook, Alfred Jacka's Prescribing Strategies and presented on the Celloids in Practice DVDs as well as developing the popular Celloids Mineral Body Signs Chart.

Dan is a strong advocate of using mineral therapy as a result of tremendous clinical success and shares many great anecdotes and case studies to support confidence in mineral therapy. Welcome to FX Medicine, Dan. How are you going?

Daniel: Thanks, Andrew. I'm very well, thank you.

Andrew: Well, let's first define mineral therapy because it's not exactly what it might seem at first, right?

Daniel: No, it's not just taking any particular mineral in any form, it's specific forms. For instance, the iron is iron phosphate, not ferrous sulphate or any other form. The calcium is calcium phosphate, not calcium amino acid chelate or any other form. So, the specific form. And the second part of it, not just the calcium, but the phosphate's important too. 

For example, in the mineral therapy system, calcium phosphate has a completely different action to calcium sulphate or calcium fluoride. So, it's a very different way of going about it. So, it's not just addressing mineral deficiencies but it's participating in the metabolic processes to correct function and often tissue health as well. So it's completely different to just deficiency.

Andrew: And there's also, you know, when you're thinking about these minerals there's a rather small dose of them as well which, you know, I mean I've had issues with that sort of thing. So, what's the reason behind the dosing?

Daniel: Well, I think it's sort of historically developed from the Schuessler salt system where they basically had if you combust or burn the body you're left with 12 basic minerals in a particular form. And he used to dose them in a homeopathic form hoping to or aiming to correct the metabolism of those minerals in the body.

Now, when Blackmore came along, Maurice Blackmore, he actually thought the Schuessler system was very good except the soils were so much poorer now that we actually needed a material dose as well.

So, they considered to help the metabolism and in some way address the deficiency as well. If you'd like, the way I pictured in my brain is that they're meant to be the minerals in the same form that's found in the food chain to replace what we might not be getting in our diets these days.

Andrew: Okay, but why would I use mineral therapy as opposed to the original homeopathic tissue cell salts?

Daniel: Tissue cell salts are in 6x strength which means that there's very little material dose whatsoever. So, that means that you're addressing none of the possible lacking of deficiency in a person's body whereas... So, Schuessler salts address metabolistic sort of problems whereas the celloids address metabolism and deficiency to some degree as well.

And the other major factor is from my experience mineral therapy in their form works better. It's simply you have to give less for a less amount of time for a given result. And I can only assume that's because it is in some way addressing some underlying deficiencies.

The other interesting thing is that, for instance, I asked Alf Jacka because he started in the '50s, you know, what was the sort of dosage that they used to have. Now, in the tablet form he was using he'd said the three times a day was often plenty. Did the job for whatever therapeutic reason without any concerns.

And I said, "Well, what do you have to do these days?" He said, "Often double the dose, you might have to take six a day for the same preparation." And I said, "What do you put that down to?" He put it down to he can only think the soils are that much more poorer. So, I think having one that's in the same form as should be in the food delivered to you in a tablet form makes a lot of sense to me.

Andrew: I also wonder whether our doubling of stress over the decades has played a major impact on not being able to digest things as well?

Daniel: Oh, look, I asked him too, "What sort of conditions did you get back in those days?" And he said, "Conditions of ranked pathology, like leg ulcer," or something like that. And I said, "Well, was there all these quasi stress emotional patterns that we see so much these days happening?" And he said, "Not nearly as much."

Andrew: Wow. What's different about mineral therapy and why prescribe them as opposed to our normal naturopathic armamentarium?

Daniel: Well, a couple of things. For instance, say if you were using a herb for headaches and say that was linked... Say, skullcap, a well-known herb, particularly, relaxant herb but also a nervine and well known for particularly headaches as well.

Now, that will work very well. And its high in magnesium too. But if you look at the actual figures it's in no way high enough to address an actual magnesium concern. So, you could take the herb forever and never actually address that, and that's what was Alf Jacka's experience. But taking the two together seemed to have a synergistic effect where it increased the mineral's absorption and increased the effect of the herb.

Andrew: Ah, now that's very interesting. So, it's actually assisting the existing armamentarium to work?

Daniel: Oh yeah. I asked Alf flat out, "If you've got, say, a cold or a flu and you're taking Echinacea," then he'll say, "Well, I'll take Echinacea with potassium chloride and iron phosphate to help the process speed itself up." Well, I'd say to him, "Well, why don't you just not take the potassium chloride and iron phosphate and just double the dose of Echinacea?"

And he said, "Because they work better together." So I supposed the question, "Well, what do you mean?" He said, "Well, 1 plus 1 equals something more than 2." 

Andrew: Right. 

Daniel: And that was his experience. When I did that book with him, out of the 95 I think something conditions like that…

Andrew: Hmm.

Daniel: …66 of them had herbs and celloids combined. 

Andrew: Right. 

Daniel: So they do work very well together.

Andrew: And he's got a lot of experience, or had a lot of experience, forgive me.

Daniel: He's probably the most experienced natural therapy practitioner maybe in the world. I mean years and years of seeing 30 patients a day and more.

Andrew: I've heard some beautiful stories about how he would view his patients, he would assess visually his patients and look rather deeply at them.

Daniel: Well, it's very interesting. From the point of view, like, there are... And this is what I teach in the seminars I do as well is there are secrets to prescribing. And I used to ask Alf questions and very often he'd close his eyes and think about it for five minutes or so, only fell asleep once.

However, however…and then he'd come forth with what mineral therapy to use. Now, I'll give you an illustration of that. Say if somebody came to you with gastritis, inflammatory condition of the stomach. Now, a practitioner who knows celloids to some degree might say, "Well, sodium phosphate will help buffer the perhaps imbalanced acids in the system. And they'd be right so they'd prescribe sodium phosphate.

Now, Alf would say iron phosphate is also applicable because inflammation is involved. So, he'd, in fact, give sodium phosphate and iron phosphate and get a better result. But even more say if they said instead they also had reflux, then he would add calcium fluoride for the strength of the sphincter between the esophagus and stomach.

So he’d in fact give sodium phosphate, iron phosphate, and calcium fluoride, and that's why he would have very much better results than many other people who would have just given the sodium phosphate. But the point about it is when he was closing his eyes he's imaging what was going on inside the body, the pathophysiology, if you like…

Andrew: Hmmm.

Daniel: …where he was realising that there's inflammation so it's iron phosphate. He was realising it's an acid imbalance so it's sodium phosphate. He was realising the sphincter needed tone so it was calcium fluoride. And that's one of the keys is to know the actions of the mineral therapy, have a good idea of what's happening in that person's body, and apply them duly. That is much better than merely looking up and saying, "Oh, for gastritis you give this." So, knowing what's actually going onside that person's body is a great key to successful prescribing.

Andrew: Don't you run the risk though of then, you know, loading up the patient on tablet after tablet after tablet?

Daniel: Not really. I mean typically I prescribe... Oh, I'll give you an example of that. Say if somebody comes to you with... I had a lady with unremitting constipation, it just wouldn't go away. And she tried everything, quite strong herbals, cascara, etc. Did all the right things, drank water, everything she should but nothing would make it go away.

Anyway, I took the case and she had tension around the shoulders, she had headaches with a band-like sensation, and so she had this plethora of magnesium signs. And so I decided to give her magnesium phosphate only and sodium phosphate as well to help absorption, and that's it.

Well, she came back in a week with all those, with her constipation relieved for the first time in decades. And the interesting thing was, the kicker was she also had a thin stool which I'm imagining had something to do with some spasm in the bowel preventing her from being able to evacuate. But the point was...there's a couple of points, is your goal is always to get the remedy that matches the most amount of symptoms because that will work the best.

So, it's always the least amount of remedies to do the most amount of work, will always work the best because that matches the person the best. The mistake, in that case, would have been saying, "Ah, magnesium phosphate's good for constipation." No, it's not. 

Andrew: Hmmm. 

Daniel. It's good for constipation if that's the cause, and in this particular person's case, it was.

Andrew: I think that's the art of these practitioners like Alf Jacka. 

Daniel: Yes. 

Andrew: It speaks volumes when you get an experienced practitioner knowing not the five things to take but the one. 

Daniel: Absolutely.

Andrew: That to me is the art.

Daniel: Oh, yeah, and it's a joy to you. Like, I had a patient who had the most complex of symptoms you've ever seen, and… a very complex condition and was on a lot of medications. And I was confused myself but then she popped out her tongue and it was a clay-coloured tongue which is a quite specific calcium sulphate sign.

And I jumped for joy because it's the usual the rarer the sign the more specific it is the more it matches the person, the better it will work. So, it's always the goal to hone it down to the exact mineral or the exact remedy that's required. So, it's the exact remedy at the right dosage for the right amount of time to judge the right therapeutic effect. So, if you do it that way you'll end up with a logical therapeutic pathway in which you can treat patients.

Andrew: Okay, so if a practitioner is going to start using mineral therapy, I mean that's going to take some years to get that true experience down, 

Daniel: Yes. 

Andrew:…that true expertise. 

Daniel: Yes. 

Andrew: So, when you start off, what sort of fallbacks do you tend to use as a noob, as a novice?

Daniel: Well, you get yourself a guide with the main actions. And the main actions of most of the minerals come down to two or three. I'll give you an example. Say if you have that chart and it's only like a half an A4 piece of paper and it says for yourself you've got somebody come in who have an injury, they've fallen over and hurt their knee. You look up… and it's red hot and inflamed.

And you look up on the chart and it says for iron phosphate inflammation remover. Okay, so I'll put iron phosphate in it. And then you look up in the chart and it's got...and then you notice the patient's knee starting to swell, and you look up on the chart and you see that potassium chloride's for congestion. Okay, it's congested tissue. So, potassium chloride as well.

And then further along the track, it seems to develop some sort of, I guess, call it water on the knee or something. In that case, you look up on the chart and it says 'Sodium Sulphate, Problem Fluid Remover.' Okay, so now it's sodium sulphate, potassium chloride, and iron phosphate. So you marry up the presenting person's symptoms with the main chart and you'll do very well.

So, that's where I would start and then I'd back that up with having the dosage chart of knowing what to dose them, and then thirdly I'd look at the body signs as well, tongue, iris, and nail. And I think your success rate in that would be really high. 

Andrew: Ok. 

Daniel: And that's not that difficult. The other thing is there's only 11 of them, I mean I was doing some work with Denis Stewart, we were up to 150 conditions with 150 herbs. So, you know, it's not that bad.

Andrew: Look, I think given the stature of Denis Stewart as a herbalist it really is, as you say, it's an opportunity not to be missed. He's a great man and indeed your experience goes in there too, so it's a double whammy for people to attend that seminar series, in my opinion.

Daniel: Oh, it's fun. For instance, he might prescribe a formula which I'd be jotting down if I was there to say headaches. Now, that formula won't be, "Oh, have a bit of this or have a bit of that." That'll be from somebody across the literature for 40 years so every particular herb in that formula will have won its place.

Andrew: Yes.

Daniel: So, you know, it's like 40 years of experience as a great herbalist you can get the top of it is not bad. And what I'll do...say he does do for headaches. I'll do things like, "Okay, that's for general headaches," but to refine the prescription with minerals if it was a throbbing headache, iron phosphate indicators.

If it was a shooting darting pain, magnesium phosphate's also indicated. If it was a dull headache, potassium phosphate, etc. So, I'll give people ways of further enhancing the herbal prescriptions with minerals or indeed the other way around if you use minerals and want some herbs to help out as well. So, it's a great combination of experience between the two of us.

Andrew: Yes. We mentioned soils before and the quality of those changing over the decades, but we've also had changes in dietary intake over the decades, you know? A huge preponderance for sugar and transfats. How much can a difference with mineral therapy make in the face of poor diet?

Daniel: Well, it's interesting. One aspect is, of course, is you could have the best diet in the world but if the minerals aren't in the soil, it's just not in the food chain. And that seems to be the experience when I prescribe. And I can certainly vouch for the fact that I use minerals as my main thrust of my therapy and they simply work.

And using them gives you that confidence that they are very effective, affordable, safe. And as I said, there's only 11 of them so it really is an easy choice for me to make. 

Andrew: yes. 

Daniel: And I guess I sort of got that confidence almost by osmosis through Alf Jacka but also visiting extremely experienced practitioners, hundreds of them all across Australia have used mineral therapy and that was their common experience. So, against that, you know, what can I say? It was simply the case.

Andrew: What about the issue of lactose?

Daniel: Yes, well that's another interesting one. From my point of view, I'm extremely confident and there never is anywhere near top of mind that lactose could be a problem because it doesn't present that much very often as a problem. So, you take it from there.

So, I know that doses in the celloids are quite low, they range from about 150 milligrams to 400 and something, 455 for calcium fluoride. But the point is that's not...depending on your source, that's not a particularly high dose. So, I don't have it uppermost of mind. And currently, for instance, out of my many patients, I have two people who out of all of those who may have a problem with lactose.

Andrew: Yes, like I know there are some people that react to...that are extremely sensitive to lactose. The normal limit for lactose intolerance suggested by Australian authorities around the 6,000 to 10,000 milligrams. But I can find no information about doses below the hundreds of milligrams. Have you?

Daniel: Very little. And it's the same case if people can be hypersensitive to anything.

Andrew: Yes, true.

Daniel: I would put it in the same view. In my view, would the alcohol content in herb with liquid preparations make you stop you from using herbs…

Andrew: Yes. 

Daniel: …in fluid form? No, it wouldn't. Neither should it be a barrier for lactose in these. And I remember anecdotally when asking Alf about that he said one day he was visited by Maurice Blackmore and posed that very question, and he put under the microscope two preparations, one with lactose...mineral preparations, one with lactose and one without.

And Alf just reported to me that the one with the lactose in it seems to be vigorously and vitally moving about whereas the one without the lactose just wasn't. And that was part of his reasoning is that it somehow helps put across the energetics as well. So, I took his word for that and I'm sure that is the case. So, Maurice Blackmore and his preparations found it essential to have the lactose.

Andrew: What about as an adjunct to other nutritional medicines? Like, for instance, you know, high dose magnesium powders are very commonly used in Australia and they work really well. There’s, what is it, 8% of women in Australia have a definite iron deficiency and so may be on an iron supplement?

Daniel: Consider, for instance, if somebody had an iron deficiency would it be useful for them to have beetroot? Probably, yes. Well, equally so iron phosphate the mineral therapy system. So, they go very well together so there's no reason at all that you can't combine them. There's a couple of things, though. If you know mineral therapy really well, you get to need to do that less and less.

So, there comes a time when you very rarely have to prescribe with those mega doses. And I've got a thing in my head that says sometimes a couple of things. If you have to mega dose, maybe that's a bit, you know, disproportionate that the body needs so much, maybe there's other issues. So, I find that if I prescribe to the person exactly what's indicated for that person I usually don't have to mega dose. But I've got nothing against it. If I had to, I would, but not very often.

Andrew: So, I think that's the danger is if people just assume that they're a small dose version of their mega dose multivitamins.

Daniel: No, it's entirely different.

Andrew: Yes, it's entirely different.

Daniel: Entirely different. Yes, but to work... The better you know them the better they work. But even knowing them mildly, they work pretty damn well. So, if you know them very well they get to need mega doses less and less until personally not at all. I would think, in my own mind, that if my mind is wandering towards a mega dose, perhaps I need some more analysis 

Andrew: Yes. 

Daniel: …to get it right exactly what they do need. I'll give you an example of that. For instance, from Alf's point of view, about probably 60% or so of people who have cramp actually need calcium phosphate, right? Not magnesium phosphate. And he would be very confident and so am I that if you correctly apply either calcium phosphate or magnesium phosphate, depending on what was indicated in that person, I have no problems with cramp issues from a nervous system point of view.

So, you don't need to if you get the celloids better and better prescribed. The other thing that's worth adding too is, say, from his point of view if it was a cramp relating to calcium phosphate, if you gave enough magnesium you could shut down on the cramp anyway but you wouldn't go to the actual problem which was calcium phosphate.

Andrew: Is there any differentiation in symptoms there?

Daniel: Oh, lots. Magnesium phosphate is muscular tension, ticks, spasms, shooting darting pains, that sort of thing, whereas calcium phosphate tends to be more sustained. But also the history, like, if you've got a pregnant woman or somebody going through a growing stage and they're getting cramp you're thinking, "Well, maybe the body's using the calcium for the growth of the bones and taking it out of their nervous system. 

Andrew: Yes, right.

Daniel: So you reason your way…that's the great thing about using celloids. And I find still a delight to this day you're a detective and it's fun. You've got this person in front of you and you're thinking, "Well, okay, what's the key to helping them?" And that's that dynamic rather than just rote prescribing, it's what makes the whole thing of natural therapies and training the individual worthwhile. And I think that's been lost these days treating the individual and the patient in front of you.

Andrew: I think you're absolutely right. It's one of my chagrins.

Daniel: Yes, absolutely.

Andrew: Is when I hear the word 'protocol' without, you know, some sort of proof behind it, its use in that static form being useful for, you know, at least a significant patient population…

Daniel: Yes. 

Andrew:…rather than thrown together. Yes, guidelines I'm happy with, protocols, no. I think they need to look at the division. 

Daniel: Yes, guidelines, suggestions, areas to explore, all great. But you do this for that and there's 400 pills involved. Hmm interesting.

Andrew: Let's go through a few of the mineral therapy salts.

Daniel: Sure.

Andrew: Because they're of great interest to me. So, I guess the first one that I, you know, was a little bit concerned about was calcium fluoride. Any issues with, you know, fluoride release here?

Daniel: No, a couple of things... Calcium fluoride, one, is the original form that they found in the water supply that was helping people's teeth, not the current forms of fluoride they have in the water supply. The second thing is calcium fluoride in those other forms, the fluoride can disassociate from the calcium or whatever, the carrier is and become freeform fluorine in the system whereas calcium fluoride doesn't do that even under the most enormous acidic conditions.

So, it stays intact as calcium fluoride. So, there's absolutely no issues as far as I'm concerned. In fact, Alf used to say that calcium fluoride is useful for conditions that are worsened by perhaps other forms of fluoride in the system. So, for instance, if you've got a lot of accretions or hardening around the joints or lack of flexibility he might say, "Well, you know calcium fluoride will help that and other forms of fluoride might not so much."

So, it’s a form of fluoride, calcium fluoride that's very important and concentrated in things like that enamel of your teeth, or the hard articular surfaces of the bone. And I find that one of the interesting things, say, for instance, a lot of the things you can use calcium fluoride for, say, for instance, varicose veins, stretch marks, lots of other conditions, injuries, etc.

You think, "Well, I can see that you can use vitamin C for that too." And you can. But calcium fluoride tends to correct the tendency, so you no longer have the tendency so much to get back problems, varicose veins or other elastic tissue problems. Now, that to me says the other major aspect not only does mineral therapy contribute to the action of herbs, sometimes they make a distinct contribution on their own that I find irreplaceable. 

Andrew: And differentiation between calcium fluoride and calcium phosphate?

Daniel: In the body-wise. That's what I said, calcium fluoride's concentrated in places like the enamel of the teeth and the hard articular surface of bone, but the actual pulp of the teeth and the pulp of the actual bone itself is actually calcium phosphate. It's not any other form of calcium, so it's the actual same form of calcium that's found in your body and also participates in your nervous system as well.

So, they have completely different therapeutic applications whereas calcium fluoride's headline, if you like, is elastic tissue strength. Calcium phosphate headline is any time there's trouble at the time of growth, suspect calcium phosphate may be involved. You start your investigation there.

And it fell off in the case. So, if you've got a growth period and got cramp, you're certainly heading towards calcium phosphate. So, any time that's a problem at the time of growth, think calcium phosphate. Confirming it with body signs is good. Two traditional ones are an open iris structure and red spots on the tongue, so you can pretty easily go from a suspected case to the individual with calcium phosphate.

Andrew: What about potassium phosphate? You know, again here, red flags, any red flags with regards to, say, ACE inhibitors?

Daniel: Well, that form of potassium... See, in nature, that form of potassium is often bound with phosphates, so it's very well controlled. So to say not to have potassium phosphate would be also to limit a lot of foods and that's not common. So, potassium phosphate is a very safe form and basically, if you look at the big picture, potassium phosphate's needed to initiate the nerve impulse, so potassium is.

So, that means that if you don't have enough to fire the nervous system up it'll manifest in things like fatigue, tiredness, poor concentration, etc. So, that's what you'd find if the headlines were potassium phosphate. Any time there is an apparent lack of nervous system energy, think of potassium phosphate. I'll give you an interesting example.

Remember I said Alf new the actions very well? He would, for instance, use... Say if a patient came and they had nocturnal enuresis, you know? And you take the case and it turns out they’ve got a lot of potassium phosphate indications. You might think, and Alf would, that there's lack of signal between the brain and the bladder at nighttime saying, "You shouldn't be doing this at the moment."

Whereas, if you had the same...had another case of enuresis and in this case, they got it when they were older and they got it when they coughed, and this time you're thinking maybe it's the sphincter strength and calcium fluoride for elastic tissue strength is indicated. So, always prescribe the presented condition in the person and you'll go pretty well.

Andrew: So, it really is defined by obviously the expertise of the practitioner as a responsible practitioner to know their pathophysiology as well?

Daniel: Absolutely. Know the action of the celloid's pretty easy or the mineral therapy pretty easy to get into your head. The more you practice it, the more it will. And these are postgraduate people who know their pathophysiology. Match them together, you'll get a result.

Andrew: You've mentioned iron phosphate numerous times. I mean I've got very limited experience with mineral therapies but with iron phosphate, I thought it was one of the sort of hero ones, if you like. Take us through how iron phosphate work and, indeed, how quickly it works.

Daniel: No, it's interesting. Don't get hung up on the iron with this because as far as deficiency goes, iron phosphate, in my practice, I might use iron phosphate rarely for subclinical anemic well-explored conditions. 

Andrew: No. 

Daniel: But most of the time, the vast majority of time I use iron phosphate for oxygenation of tissue. So, for instance, that's needed at any time the tissue is under stress. So, we're talking injuries and infection. So, if it helps participate in the metabolic process, deliver oxygen, and help pass through the traumatic or the infectious event faster. So, it's a major remedy for pain, especially related to inflammation and redness. So, if you see the tissue like I gave with that example with the knees, if it's painful, hot, and red, the reason its got heat is it's increased oxygenation.

Okay, iron phosphate's indicated. Away you go. So, it's actually a great remedy to easily get hold of and also works very quickly. And it's a great demonstration mineral for first aid conditions or conditions that need acute help to demonstrate to yourself and the practitioners how well these minerals work.

Andrew: Potassium phosphate and magnesium phosphate are very commonly used together. And you know, ostensibly, you'd be thinking nerves, but if you look at the mineral therapy chart, there's some other considerations there as well, is that right?

Daniel: Well, same with potassium phosphate it's the nerve power activator you sometimes refer it to. So, anytime there's a lack of nerve power. So, that would be characterised by the teeth, whereas magnesium phosphate sort of fits between the neurons or magnesium does and helps coordinate the activity between the two. So its overwhelming major applications for tension states. 

So, it might be tension around the neck, shoulders, or indeed you can put the caveat around something like stress. So, potassium phosphate, lack of mental energy particularly, magnesium phosphate, tension and stress. So, together, and they often go together, they work very well. But mind you, and this is another key to prescribing, if somebody came to you and they were just really tense, anxious, and stressed and had tension around the neck and shoulders and a band-like sensation around the head, just give them magnesium phosphate.

Potassium phosphate isn't indicated. And if you do that, it’ll actually, the experience is it'll actually work better than giving them together, potassium phosphate and magnesium phosphate. Prescribe exactly what is needed for the exact patient in front of you because it works better and the other main reason is you tend to hone your skills, you know how each of them work if you apply them in that precise way and you get a learning curve over time. 

Andrew: Now I tend to be erring on the side of caution in adverse events, but things like sodium phosphate, again, do you have any concerns with low sodium diets, people with blood pressure, etc, or when would you use it? 

Daniel: Okay, well the interesting thing about that it's…say you use sodium chloride which is a major concern. When the chloride is finally eliminated you may be left still with some sodium which attracts water and fluid, hence blood pressure. But in the case of sodium phosphate, when the phosphate is eliminated, so is all the sodium. So, you never end up with an ion imbalance.

Besides which the cautions is around sodium is pretty clearly sodium chloride form. So, no, I might even prescribe sodium phosphate or sodium sulphate in the case of somebody who might have blood pressure issues if it's indicated because I have no concern that the sodium is ever going to become unbalanced in the system. And, of course, it is an essential component of your metabolism.

Andrew: So, you know, obviously you've got 30 years experience as a practitioner here. There's a heck of a lot of patient data there that you've practised on and help patients to resolve conditions. When you're talking about somebody starting out, what sort of advice can you give them with regards to how long mineral therapy should take to work? When should you be looking for results?

Daniel: Ah, well two things. Acute conditions rather quickly. And the same... So that's coughs, colds, flus, injuries, etc. Longer-term conditions apply as the same as you would through any other therapy. In the main, chronic conditions need chronic treatment whether you're using herbs or whether you're using minerals therapy. So, it depends on the condition. Say, for instance, if there's a tension state in the nervous system, basically an electrical basis magnesium phosphate will work really quickly.

I mean it wouldn't surprise you if they feel better that day, but certainly within two weeks. But if you're using calcium fluoride, say, for somebody who has recurrent hamstring injuries, you've actually going to build the tissue so that's going to take a while. So, you might be looking two months there. So, as long as you know your physiology you should be pretty right and sensibly figuring this out.

Andrew: Dan, we need to cover limitations of therapy and red flags and when you'd refer on. I note that earlier, you know, you were talking about, let's say, a patient with a sore knee and then you notice fluid on the knee. Now, when is this just a remedial-type issue? When is it something that you need to refer on? For instance, you know, a torn ACL or a Baker's cyst. When do you call it? When do you refer?

Daniel: Well, my actual preferred position is that all patients should come to me as pre-diagnosed from a medical doctor, and that's my preferred position. So, if they haven't and I at least bit suspect that they should do, then I'm sending them off anyway regardless of the therapy. It's just responsible prescribing. So, I don't take people on with serious conditions that haven't been properly diagnosed.

So, that's that cooperation with the medical fraternity which I think is necessary. For instance, I had a patient a while back who said I recommended that they go see their medical doctor for bowel problems and they came back and they said, "Yes, had all sorts of bowel investigations. And they showed me nothing." And I said, "Well, actually, it showed you hadn't got any really serious pathology going down there. Isn't that nice to know?"

So, my opinion is that you've just going to act responsibly. Now, as far as when does mineral therapy become a concern, not very often. I remember asking people who deal with practitioners all the time, and we're talking hundreds of calls a year. "Give me instances of when mineral therapy have been a problem." And they found it very hard to do so. I also remember a case of a woman ringing up whose child had taken a whole bottle of iron phosphate.

Well, it was potassium chloride and iron phosphate, I believe. At any rate, the iron can become quite a toxic problem, especially when they're young. 

Andrew: Yes. 

Daniel: So, they sent them off to get tests in the hospital and it turned out the iron wasn't a problem. And that's because after a while because the body has been evolved to taking that form of iron for millennia, well millions of years, that it handled it and it turns out the phosphate starts to inhibit the iron absorption after a while.

So, from my point of view, the main thing is to always do it in conjunction with medical doctors as well, and pharmacists, and alert them and have a professional cooperation. And using those responsible guidelines I don't anticipate any problems particularly other than what you'd expect in a modern practice.

Andrew: Dan, thank you so much. Wise words which poignantly show your vast experience using mineral therapies with a lot of patients over your career, and I thank you so much for taking us through. This is something though that requires dedicated learning. And I would really urge every practitioner who's interested in learning more about mineral therapy, if you can get to these seminars with Dan Jones and Denis Stewart, you are in for a treat, an absolute treat.

Daniel: I'd just like to confirm the point of view that if I had come to the state of some learning it's been through other practitioners have been a major part of it. So, to continue on that cultural part of our dynamic where we learn from each other and especially people with a lot of experience, I think it is no bad thing.

Andrew: Yes, I'd wholeheartedly urge every practitioner to really invest in that rich experience of yours, so well done to you, Dan. Thank you so much for joining us on FX Medicine today and we'll put all the relevant links that you've mentioned up on the FX Medicine website for our listeners to access.

Daniel: Terrific, Andrew. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Andrew: This is FX Medicine, I'm Andrew Whitfield-Cook. This podcast is brought to you by the ATMS Natural Medicine Week. For more information of events and offers, go to


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FX Medicine Podcast
FX Medicine is at the forefront of ensuring functional and integrative medicine gains the recognition it deserves and ultimately establishes itself as an integral part of standard medical practice. Hosted by Andrew Whitfield-Cook, our podcasts are designed to promote research and evidence-based therapeutic practises, acting as a progressive force for change and improvement in patient health and wellbeing.